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tv   The Source With Kaitlan Collins  CNN  May 28, 2024 6:00pm-7:00pm PDT

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iss that. that's amazing doc. mobile savings are calling. visit xfinitymobile.com to learn more. doc? heart-healthy, rushed to walmart and find total bce this source. >> but kaitlan collins next it is just before 9:00 p.m. here in new york, the end of nearly 12 hour day for jurors in the first, the form resonance four criminal trials. >> look at the case tomorrow with it a job. they know jury has ever had before deciding whether or not to convict a former president united states and current candidate for the office again, of as many as 34 felonies today was the final chance for both sides to persuade some were talking about it tonight, joining the panel, retired new york city criminal judge georgia grosso and jury consultant alan. alan tuerkheimer. just grass. so it is great to have you with all your experience here. what do you make up closing arguments night, i mean five hours, two-and-a-half, three hours. is that it was a long day for the
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most part i found it. >> i was totally zoned in that one pretty pretty quick. i felt towards the last hour or so that mr. steinglass couldn't move to the long and i didn't know if we needed like six book excerpts choice. choice xors. i think get less where the been a little more with that. but i think i think look on the defense and i think todd blanche rule was i heard the word meandering yeah, i certainly subscribe to that. >> i think he made a real legal and tactical mistake by diving into people's exhibits 35 and 36. the weisselberg notes, i think they are the smoking gun evidence and i think he dove into a minefield without a plan to get to get through it. >> do you think he should not have even brought those up? >> if anything? i wouldn't he
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like lead with it. right. >> that's not hit those documents are not his strong suit. and i anticipated and then i saw steinglass just went to town. he really he got to a plus on that bolt documents up you've got weisselberg's handwriting on the documents, laying out the scheme, the full hundred and $20,000 you got mcconney on a separate document number 36, with his handwriting parroting the same scheme and just so we have a trifecta on 35, you got cohen's handwriting tool and one thing that steinglass seemed to drill in on was he was seen to be making fun of todd blanche, that was kinda the tone that he tried to adopt the whole time, but he was saying this idea that todd blanche is arguing that because these documents exist, show no crime was committed here that no documents were falsified because you can see them. >> he was saying they're never be a business falsification case ever because you would just destroy them and if they
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existed, they would say, well, it's not a crime. and that was something he kinda he looked to the committee and said you almost have to the jury, said you almost have to laugh at the way mr. blanche explained it to you. >> you it's been in there every single day. you sit the same seat from people who don't know. everyone else has to fight for sap as is owed same seat which i'm obsessed with, but i'm wonder what you make of how that sat with the jury as they're watching this? >> what blanche then now steinglass kind of turned it around. >> oh, i think i think putting it all together. >> i think if it's a tennis match, i mean steinglass, just nail them. he put it over the net and killed it. and i think the jury, this is a smart jury. i mean, we all look at the same jury. we see the same jury. we were there for the norman and with f for the questioning of the jurors, these are people who want to be there. they could have just raise their hand if they didn't want to be there, they would have they would have left. they've been through the whole process today was day 21. that clearly paying
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attention this it was not over their head got this allen euro, a jury consultant. >> there's a lot of talk about the length of the closing arguments. have you ever come across jurors who were so annoyed about the duration that it actually impacted their votes i don't think it impacted their votes and i think since both sides, when excessively long with their closings, i think it's probably a draw in terms of which side seemed to be a little more tedious, a little more in the weeds, a little more on extraneous information that they didn't need. >> so i think each sayyed they did. okay. they did a good job, but they miss delivering stellar closing. it's not the defense, i think did what it had to raise some questions about fraudulent and ten on the part of trump regarding the invoices surrounding the payments, but they were a little gratuitous with some cheap shots and michael cohen and a little gimmicky prosecution i think was a little more streamlined. think they give a timeline laid out the elements and the actual verdict questions jurors are going to have, but the state also took a long time. so at
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this point it's about deliberation advocacy, and i would guess that of the 12 jurors maybe four of them are pretty firmly convinced of guilt or innocence. and then another far are leaning in one direction or the other. and then for our waiting for deliberations to make make a decision judge if if you can't reach a decision, if the deadlock there's something called an allen triage that the judge can give to the what what is that it's basically it's kinda like looking at you took an oath i believe in you you believe in me a nice way you like what did the thumbs is going to do it nicely? >> yeah. no. but but that's where you could do the allen charge. >> nice or you can do it rough i think what may very well get us to the verdict tea is i think my sean has a ton of
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goodwill with this jury, a ton one of goodwill with this jury. >> i think if for no other reason, then that can want to disappoint has been protecting the jury in the sense of like kind to them, we'd like to go long, but if any one of you has any issue, we won't do it and they didn't go long one day, but i'm very couldn't do it 100%. >> so he's got a lot of goodwill and the bench press or can i since you have the experience here, could you tell us what a missing witness charges because that is in the realm of possibilities. >> i don't think judge merchan has ruled publicly whether he's going to give him missing what is charged. but regarding weisselberg, yeah. just tell them what that means. that's a huge win for the defense. if he gives him his here's why i don't think they're going to give it because off could you just tell us what a bonus army it's gotta be a witness that's peculiarly peculiarly under the control of the people. so what that would typically mean someone's locked up, you're the defense attorney, you can't yet but they could get them merchan
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called that block. >> but over his defense said we're he would take the fifth if we call them, but the prosecutor could give him let me answer the question i was in the courtroom. >> norman was in the courtroom when that issue came up and michigan said, because it came up because i actually thought that the de was playing a little bit of a game with the exit agreement with the $2 that they want it to be able to get that in evidence. and then merchan said, well, did you try and get them yet, he asked them that question and then steinglass was kinda hemming in with that a little bit. so much. sean says okay, what about we bring them in? we bring weisselberg in outside the presence of the jury and we question them. blanche, without in a heartbeat jumped up he's not on the weightlessness list, judge. we're not ready for him. we don't ever so obvious he was he was objecting and i'm michele sun. and the way
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miss shawn does it, he looked at him and he said, oh so this is the first time you're considering that allen weisselberg might be a witness in this case after michigan did that. and it was obvious he could have brought them in if he wanted. he uninteresting and bring him in to try and say this is peculiarly under the control of the government. so you get that charge or charge author that's why don't see it neither. >> i mean, it's in that instance. neither side wanted whilst weisselberg to come in, not to mention the fact that even if whilst weisselberg were to testify, it's not clear that he would be a witness for the prosecution, and that is not clear. the fence information thanks. harp on the you don't want they don't want him to come in either summation, it's too late. i'd say like with weisselberg said writing is exhibit 35, judge. dreiser's really upset about this. it's all his head hi, folks. they have the bird. they did that with some other witnesses they made that point, right. blanche basically made
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that point on a number of occasions saying the prosecution they didn't bring in any lawmakers to talk about the impact of the access hollywood tape. they didn't bring in that person. they didn't bring in this person. they did it i've obliquely but they did not do it for weisselberg and i thought that was extremely notable the most ridiculous example of this was when the defense task, the prosecution with not bringing again, don junior eric, it was another one because they were all so people who sign is tired. >> and arthur, i can tell you, we're not getting a minute. missing witness instruction because we sat through at lengthy charging conference, it was not discussed. it's not in any of the submissions not happening. >> they didn't like okay. i got your request that we have an ultimate to trial groupies right here you've been like every emotion after it's the
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whole way arguing about lichens shakespeare would do it again sunday hours the one thing trump keeps talking about and he's complaining about tonight is that he can't use the reliance on council argument, which was something that was settled over six weeks ago when they were first making this call of saying he can't say that he was relying on legal advice of michael cohen when michael cohen told him the agreement was airtight and bullet the proof. and now he is increasingly angry about that and keeps bringing it up, even though the judge made clear during the jury instruction debate that i assume both of you were in last week? >> that was that was long gone. that was never even going to be an option here. >> well, it's such a bogus issue because pecker is already david pecker is already testified that he then provide the council with pertinent information. he just t-a take a look at this. none of the background information, none of the none of the things going on behind the scenes with campaign and money than not being reported. it's just like yeah,
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council look at it in half foul. yeah, this is good trump knows that trump's lawyers know that and they just wanted to try and muddy the waters with it, but it wasn't like they got it a legitimate opinion from the general count. i was general counsel for the police department for five years. you're going to ask me for an opinion, submit all the relevant relevant, pertinent information on. hold back information and then take my deputy commissioner of grasses opinion and then hold that up as a legal opinion because it's not and that's exactly the game they're trying to pull here. >> judge, if i can if i can ask you. do you see any potential appellate issue with the way the de has charged this case for the first time in new york history. they've essentially imported a federal campaign finance violation into a state charge. >> norman and i've been talking about this ad nauseum yeah. >> shocking while whenever the judge because i know are normal here where you come that well you know, i mean it still is i
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give the overall i give the de a very high marks. >> absence six book excerpts on this summation but it's still a little tricky to figure out how the i think as far as the false five business records, i think it's almost slam dunk right now that they've got trump pretty solid. i think that this summation for the de a buttoned up a lot of that but connecting that now, what are we connecting it to? how will we know there is a ton of evidence of testimony that this was all being done for the campaign you know, it's it's being covered up it was covered up the way it was covered up because it was an unreported campaign contribution. but how has that been imputed to trump yet, what is the actual i still have not seen the final charges to the jury. i'm going to be has a real nerd on this guy. i'm going to pay like zoning right in. i want to see where they're using willful what
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they're going to be using for stay the mine and whatever they use i think that this is definitely a potential point. a lot of appellate issues, a lot of cases that are overturned are overturned on the judge's charged to the jury. basically, you gave the rules of the game two the people deciding the game. inaccurately and you've been there every day you to say if the summations prosecutors have done a great job, but it's a little willy nilly on how they're going against that because he is a pause about whether this case should have been brought at all. well, you know what i think i disagree with you on that. we've had this conversation on your radio show every day, every day. >> i think it was there was something rotten in denmark that and i think there's a mountain of evidence that and i think that that the trump tower conspiracy meeting august of 2015, i think the defense summation felt really flat when
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they tried to say that like deaf david pecker had not no knowledge of what cachin killed because he then used the word there. it's hundred and 30,000, 3000015000030000. judge, that you let me finish. that was clearly that was clear. that was clearly directed towards the campaign. i always to me going there every day, you'd have to be deaf, dumb and blind, not to see that a minute. >> willy nilly when i'm talking like this, i can ride a bike willy nilly. i'm talking about in the context of what is the charge going to look like? >> how is the jury going to process it? and what is it going to look like on appeal? because there is some new ground being made. his question and all you years on the bench over a decade, did you ever have a charge that it was the first time ever you created the charge. it didn't exist anywhere else. i can give you the answer. the answer is no. well, i never had a guy who ran for president who thought that was a good idea to get some friends. >> the other a lot of money
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here. >> we know we have we have something here that never happened before with these laws when never used the way that we used before because they were never, at least from what i've seen, abused the way they were abused by this particular defendant. >> now, does that ultimately lead to a bulletproof a bullet verdict? if they do choose to find him guilty, we'll have to see. but i think the evidence was there to bring the case. i think the evidence is there that convict but we'll have to ultimately see if he's convicted, what the appellate division grass we got to go about to ask you, you've looked in the eyes of lotto jurors watching the jury's i'm sure you have. what do you make of how they've been paying attention? >> you're paying attention. >> i am i'm taking notes vigorously and it's so i'm always into the notes, but then i just like randomly look up and scan and these people are paying attention this series,
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whether you think naaman as smart and dedicated and focused a jury, as i've ever seen in over 30 years, but never sitting above the courtroom wearing the robe judge grass. oh, wow. so great to have you thank you so much as your as mine. tuerkheimer as well. thank you so much. appreciate it coming up next. john berman's back with more details from the trial transcript later how today's closing arguments landed with voters specifically enjoyed welcome people from both sides of the political spectrum. but we're talking are gary tuckman lives are special primetime coverage continues i'm getting vaccinated by ssrs, pneumococcal pneumonia vaccine because i'm at risk for pneumococcal pneumonia i already gotten pneumonia vaccine, but i'm asking about the added protection of krever, not 20. if you're 19 or older with certain chronic conditions like asthma, diabetes copd, or
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pressure, and improve heart-healthy rush to walmart and find total bce news night with abby phillip tonight at 10:00 a.m. on cnn because closing arguments once a longtime until just before apm, we're still waiting to get the final installment of the trial transcript, but what we've got is revealing enough, john berman is back with more details. what are you looking at? >> so danya perry, who represented michael cohen, was on a few minutes ago and she was saying that michael cohen actually counted the number of times that todd blanche the defense attorney, called him a liar. so did we the number we came up with and a glickman of my producer between calling michael cohen a liar that he was lying, he lied or just lie or perjury, 78 times, 78 times
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todd blanche said, in this is what one of the things that blanche said directly about michael cohen. he's literally like an mvp of liars. he lies constantly is lied to congress. he lied to prosecutors. he lied to his family, his business associates. he lied to his bosses. he lies to reporters. he likes to federal judges a little bit later, he said, it's like what people, when they talk about with athletes like michael jordan as the goat, tiger woods is the goat, tom brady as the goat. these athletes are the greatest all time, the best among their peers, michael cohen is the gloat. he's literally the greatest liar of all time. and then the prosecutor, josh psi-blast, later said, we didn't choose michael cohen to be our witness. we didn't pick him up at the witness store. the defendant chose michael cohen to be his fixer because he was willing to to lie and cheat on mr. trump's behalf in this case, there is literally a mountain of evidence corroborating testimony that tends to connect the defendant to this crime from pecker to hicks, to the defendant's own employees, to the documents
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that defendants don't tweets and rallies in his own words on that recorded conversation, the list goes on and on. it's difficult to conceive of a case with more corroboration than this one, i just want to point out both attorneys misuse the word literally. >> yes just it's just that we were talking beforehand if i should break up just a little pet peeve of it. another thing is todd blanche used the word michael cohen 251 time. >> so we mentioned michael cohen, 251 times. it is closings. he said president trump or defendant 235 times. so more cohen and trump, if you want to know what todd blanche, who he wants this case to be about, right there. >> you should never say the word defendant when you're a defense attorney, never refer to your client as the defendant. he's always mr. so and so and you put your hand on the show. >> he never to todd blanche's never mr sewing so president trump, but apparently referred to as the defendant. >> i mean, look, he has to go after cohen. and again, i would have just highlighted and he
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lied to all those people to leave. she just gave us berman, but then i would say any light to you folks. >> he did say that du you really think he doesn't want trump to get acquitted? >> and he really think that's not in his best interest for president trump to get. i'm sorry. do you really think he wants to get them acquitted? not convicted. he selling shirts of the guy behind bars have you, using your common sense, ladies and gentlemen, have you ever heard the case that a law and order think of every movie you've watched. have you haven't seen the main witness is selling t-shirts of the defendant, who he is testifying against wearing in a t-shirt with a guy behind bars. if that doesn't tell you he's lying to you right here in this trial. i don't know what steinglass sought to really go. he spent it seemed like the first half-hour that he was up there talking about all the times that todd blanche called michael cohen a liar and was saying, we're not asking you to love michael cohen. he was saying michael cohen made his bed, but he was saying also one on michael cohen making money said you can't judge him from making money off of the people that he surrounded himself with drawing it all back to saying, you know, donald trump was the
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person who put michael cohen in this position and hired him for all these years. and another interesting point, and on the trump going to jail, he said, quote anyone in cohen's shoes would want the defendant to be held accountable. that's how they address that. but he also made an interesting point. he said that the defense was trying to have it both ways with michael cohen, which is to say he's a liar and he's a thief. but also this idea that he was not he was not being reimbursed, that he was being paid these legal fees that are totally aboveboard, but also he got $60,000 that were grossed up for taxes, which is not as you well know, how legal fees work. they were arguing the defense is making two different arguments on michael cohen, that conflicted with one. >> they were also pointing out that michael cohen wants credit for things and certainly wants attention for the things he has done. so the idea that he would have done this without donald trump's knowledge just is not that he's going to want to get the credit from donald trump for having done this. >> also suggesting when they talk about the credit issue that michael cohen was trying to care carefully tailor his
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testimony to speak to things that other witnesses have testified about, like hope hicks, he had he carefully tailored his testimony. they the defense argued to try to make donald trump look worse they were trying to argue that michael cohen was being strategic about trying to create the aid. an evidence pool that looked bad for donald trump i got that was important for them to say, i'm not sure that it really did the whole job, but it was important for them to point out that the inconsistencies add up to something when it comes to cohen, which is that he has an interest in seeing donald trump in jail, and that he's willing to say anything and he also knows exactly what to say to make trump look bad. >> i thought it was interesting how josh steinglass, the prosecutor, dealt with the michael cohen issue because he took the most damaging testimony upfront. he stepped before he did his long crown
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logical summary. he took that moment, you and i were sitting very near each other for that moment, anderson, when he confronted michael cohen with that october 24 phone call and said you didn't mention that it was about this 14 year-old brand color and cohen, we heard it from his lawyer on the problem hi, your our the danya perry said, well, my recollection was refreshed. there's plenty of time to do it. steinglass took the bull by the horns on that with his wonderful little bit of theater of doing that phone call and playing out how there wasn't enough time. he fronted it it, was a one-two punch to defend and michael cohen then he spent another close to four hours on the corroboration of michael cohen. that's why we were all kept their so long i had to sprint. caitlin gautier before because she was still in court. when are about she's got that
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anchor magic elie, they had and he did it. hold on, arthur and i'm going to do it from four hours yeah. >> you did the cross-examined every day, said you wanted to tell you in closing heat for four hours, he corroborated cohen and he wanted to make a point. you can believe them, but also there is a mountain and the jury suffer a little bit through that mountain, but the suffering was the point i speaking to suffering you might be hurt your motion is granted. thank you. when you were prosecuted and you were building up your case did you do it in a way like a timestamp way or did you do at issue by issue, did you a chronologically or issue? i would try to take it chronologically. right. you start thematic, you end thematic, but you want journey to be able to follow it. this is a hard story to follow. a lot of it happened a long time ago. there's meetings, there's calls. >> so i would take it later. i would never go four hours. >> but i want to say this also.
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we prosecutors are so spoiled. we have every advantage i can recognize that now i did it for 14 years, but take for example, the point that steinglass made a very effective rhetorical argument about, we didn't choose him as our witness. the defendant chose him that's bull. the prosecution chosen when they chose to charge this case, they own him. they're the ones putting him in front of the jury saying, believe him beyond a reasonable doubt, but steinglass and me and my old days knows that you're getting we get the last word and they're not gonna be able to to make that rebuttal and they're the ones who decided not to charge him for steel and $30,000 from this exact transaction, but i mean, donald trump is the one who chose to surround himself with a certain type of people. >> and michael cohen was one of them. and he michael cohen seemed to flourish under the system and the cast of characters here's the donald trump wanted to surround and assigned him to one of the most sensitive undertakings that happened in the 2016 campaign, which is musters the defense tried to downplay the 20th, 2016 access hollywood tape.
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>> we were all there. we all witnessed it. michael cohen was in charge of dealing with that yeah we're gonna take a break. >> john berman. thank you, kevin. next we're going to speak to the attorney for stormy daniels, whose alleged sexual encounter with donald trump is how all of this began and discuss why the prosecutors she says her allegation is the motive for this case only purples gel flex grid passes the raw egg no other matters. >> cradles your body and simultaneously supports your spine. memory foam doesn't come close, get your best sleep guaranteed, safe up to $800 during our memorial day sale does it purple.com or store near you we know you care. but if this is all too real for you and your loved ones, make the call because we care to home instead, to us. >> it's personal red hot deal days are here only until may 29. >> get a bundle of your choice on us. so you'll get a free phone and smartwatch and a
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liev schreiber, premiere sunday at nine on cnn the defense has. >> said the former president did not have a sexual encounter with stormy daniels today. they also argued that this case is about the documents, not about her prosecutors, however, said that believing her testimony only reinforces why the former president would want to by her silence. why else they asked? >> did they work so hard to try to discredit her, quoting the prosecution in the simplest terms, stormy daniels is the motive, is how she described that alleged 2006 sexual encounter when i talked to her in 2018 for 60 minutes i went to the restroom.
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>> i wasn't there for a little bit and came out and he was sitting on the edge of the bad when i walked out perched and when you saw that, what went through your mind i realize exactly what i'd gotten myself into here we go. and i just felt like maybe it was sort of i had it coming for making a bad decision for going to someone's room alone and i just heard the voice and i well, you put yourself in a bad situation and bad things happen. so you deserve this and you had sex with him? yes you were 27? >> he was 60. were you physically attracted to him? no not at all. >> no. >> did you want to have sex with him? >> no but i didn't i didn't say no. >> i'm not a victim. i'm not. >> it was entirely consensual. oh, yes. >> yes. >> you work in an industry you were condom use is an issue. did the did he use a condom? no. >> did. you ask him to know?
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>> i honestly didn't say anything the defense reiterated say that form. >> president denies encounter joining us to stormy daniels, attorney clark brewster. you think this is going to end quickly, you think a jury could come back quickly with a verdict? yeah. >> i think so. i think the issues are pretty defined, even though there's 34 counts, i really facts to the law in this case will be easily applied. my view, notwithstanding long closing arguments today. and i predict they'll come back pretty quickly if not tomorrow, then thursday what did you make of how and todd blanche's closing arguments today? he continued to reiterate that that trump denies that that encounter that stormy daniels was just telling you understand about years ago and also testified to ever even happened. >> yeah. >> i think his statement was i met her one time on a golf course for a picture, but that left out the story about the number times he called her, that people were witness to that she'd gone to trump tower, had pictures up there that she'd gone to his bungalow in hollywood so there's a lot of things that
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he said there weren't true. >> well, i mean, and she testified that it did happen donald trump obviously did not testify to whether or not happen. do you think he should have if he wants to continue denying it? >> well, he has an absolute right not to testify in a court of law. and when he's charged criminally. and so we respect that, but he said so many things about outside the courtroom that you'd have thought that you'd want to wear that on his sleeve in the courtroom, but he didn't do you think that the prosecution needed to call stormy daniels legally or narratively originally? >> when i first met with the prosecution, it was my position. why do you need to call her? i've read the the indictment. i didn't think they needed to call her but i think they really wanted to lay the context for why trump would have felt this was a very important thing to keep out of the public view and that it was something that she was credible. she had a persona in the public and and so i think it was important probably for the jury to see her and
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understand what they describe hertz when the defense said that the allegations were already out there, they they basically said that the idea that suddenly stormy daniel's was story coming out in 2016 would not have been that big of a deal because they were essentially already in the public domain. ben, do you think there's any truth to that? >> well, i think there might be some truth to the fact that she she'd made a statement, i think back in 2011, but really hadn't caught traction until the access hollywood tape the access hollywood tape put it into a just a four cornered defense for them. they had to do something in my view because she would have been a spokesperson that really would have lend credibility to the story and would have told the truth. last time we were here, you told us that stormy daniel's was so nervous going to testify that she actually wore a bulletproof vest on our way inside court. >> i mean, obviously she has security. she was whisked then what how how she spending these few days as now, the jury is out to get the case and just a matter of hours. >> yeah. i wouldn't say nervous
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i she was a nurse. she was fearful. and she was fearful about what couldn't be predicted this somebody might do something rash, or somebody might try to harm her family and she really got gripped with fear. but when it came to getting on the stand, she was i thought she really showed transparency and forthcoming, and met with cross-examination and dealt well with it but how is she feeling about this moment now know that the jury's out to get the case. >> and as she's waiting to see what this verdict is going to be, well, she's been texting me right up to this moment, so she she's decided not to do any interviews. she wants to stay the out of the limelight. she doesn't want to have any bearing whatsoever on whatever the jurors may think. she wants her testimony to be what they've heard and make decisions about. and so she's she's just chosen from which i got to say speaks very well to her, that she doesn't want to influence this process until the jury renders of verdict.
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>> yeah, the prosecutors shin asked her not to make any statement says the trial was getting closer and she didn't and she stayed out. she i think she responded a little bit in the twitter field, but for the most part, no no interviews and and stayed out. >> you've answered eleia's question about whether or not you thought she should testify to she's still think that it was the right thing for her to actually take the witness stand. >> i think so we have a really good relationship and i share with her what i think she should do and then she really has a voice in that. and chooses her own course. but i think in the law we're on if she were here, she would say if she's glad that she she showed up and subject and herself to cross-examination so that people could see whether she was telling the truth. and i think they could see that on the topic of the crop cross-examination, some of us, myself included felt that she was actually stronger on cross. would it? have been wiser? one of the themes as we've talked about today is less, is
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sometimes more clark, would it have been wiser for the defense simply not to cross-examine her. there were some tough moments on the direct my son was with me and he's a trial lawyer and we talked about how we might have cross-examined her and one thing is there's probably 30 questions that the defense lawyer could ask that she would have agreed with them on and they could have gotten a consensus on a lot of detail, but they went in and challenged or early and try to really imputer integrity and just didn't go well for them. >> i think there could have been a real nice pathway of leading questions and getting consensus on fat now, but treat what are they? >> well, there's we could talk about it, but there's many i mean, she wouldn't have resisted a lot of facts that would have been consistent with trump's story and the truth truly, and the real issue is whether sex occurred and how it unfolded. >> and that's where they parted with the road of the story. but there's a lot of consensus they could have reached good examination. it
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wasn't done. >> i would have just done all the questions on that. she did not talk to trump about the issues in this case, the 30 for allegedly false records. trump in trump's intent or not in creating those records, she never had a conversation with him about the underlying alleged 2016 election conspiracy. so she really doesn't have any information to advance the case. and she illustrates the distance that the prosecution has to travel for the actual issues in the case. >> there's a lot of ways you could have approached it, but i think going for the issues that they could have agreed upon would've been a good cross-examination for her. she really prides herself on being truthful and consistent. and i think they could have gotten the long way with that, ultimately though the story wouldn't come out what happened and ultimately what drove trump to act in 16. that's the case. >> the prosecution ended today.
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would one of their lines saying that story daniels was the motive here that that's the simplest way to put it the defense was arguing that she was extorting trump because the prosecution you're saying, well, this was out there and he never chose to pay it until close to the election. todd blanche is arguing that this was extortion of a presidential candidate. what does she make of, of something like that? >> well, did karen mcdougal du it as well? i mean i mean, aren't they both similar situated although the scheme and trying to silence him was slightly different. as stormy really had little to say was keith davidson her lawyer, and they approached him and he reported to her it's far from extortion trying to make that argument. i think the jury would see is not very valid. >> clark busari, it's heavy on. again. appreciate. thank you. thank you so much coming out. 12 voters in the battleground, state of georgia speak with our gary tuckman, about their views on the case and whether they would vote to convict or acquitted if you're why choose asleep numbers smart
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georgia state capitol in atlanta. this is cnn this case will soon be in the hands of the 12 jurors. >> and after that, voters and the november presidential elections, which is only a little more than five months away, or gary tuckman is in georgia, key battleground, say what, 12 voters representing a range of opinions about the foreign president and the case, gary, what are you hearing anderson, we are hearing atlanta with 12 voters who have done their best to pay attention to the coverage of this trial. >> we've watched the coverage of the closing arguments tonight. unlike the jury in new york city, i've grilled these people about their politics i've asked them who they're going to vote for in november because we want political diversity in this group. i feel we succeeded because five of you say you're gonna vote for joe biden, five of you say you're gonna vote for donald trump. and two of you are undecided. the first thing i want to ask you though, show of hands who feels think like a juror now, who feels that donald trump has been proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, raise your hand. 123 4567. >> who thinks that donald trump is not guilty?
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>> raise your hand. high 1234. >> we have one undecided person there who's undecided. you're undecided. okay. i want to start with you ross. you said you're gonna vote for donald trump, but you think he's guilty. why? >> yes, sir i think he's guilty because i don't think it has business dealings that he would not know what was going on with the hush money payments okay. deanna, you said you're gonna vote for joe biden. you feel trump is guilty, correct? >> yes, i believe that the evidence that was presented was pretty substantial, including the bank account statements from michael cohen and the series of texas there were signed off by trump, joe, you say you're undecided about or even vote for in november, but you feel that donald trump is guilty. why? i do? yeah. i've same reason. i believe that the they prove that bunny trail and they had that for various reasons. >> and good job in san de are a couple. sandy feels differently. she's ready to vote for donald trump and feels he's not guilty. why do you feel that way? >> i think michael cohen yes. lack of total lack of credibility as the star witness. he is proven to be dishonest and admitted it as
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well. and now we're supposed to believe him. >> okay? robert, you said your red vote for donald trump and you feel he's not guilty, told me why yeah. >> correct. i think for me it comes down to the burden of proof and i don't feel the prosecution has laid out a real game plan are really proved any of the allegations beyond a reasonable doubt a tony on the end is an attorney. >> she says she's ready to vote for joe biden and feels down trump is guilty. how come? >> yeah. i mean, whether trump intended to protect us family or stormy threatens to come board. he's still participated in falsifying documents and attempts to influence the election. i mean, if you wanted to pay the hush money, this happened in 2006, you would have paid it years ago and the nda from 2006 scene shows his awareness of what took place on the top row on the left, this is scott. scott doesn't know who he's going to vote for in november, and he doesn't know if donald trump is guilty or not guilty. how come you feel that way at this point? >> i think the prosecution made it about michael cohen when they let him open his mouth and
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he turned out to be the worst star witness in the history. of trials so good luck to the jurors trying to figure out what's true, what's your the juror right now, but you're saying you haven't decided you don't like cohen, but you haven't decided he's not guilty? >> yeah. i as an american, i also didn't have the ability to see things through an unfiltered lens. >> so that would have really helped. >> and that's what i've explained. we've done you've done your best to follow this trial. the land sea you're ready to vote for joe biden at this point, you say donald trump's guilty? we have come i think cohen is also not very credible witness, but i think on the things that he said that mattered in the trial, it was backed up by the testimony from david pecker a controller for the trump organization, and also the silence of allen weisselberg, who did not testify and wasn't called because of the on disclosure agreement he signed for $2 million. this is still mansi son, roscoe voted your first presidential election in november. it says he's voting for donald trump. >> no, no checking you there.
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>> roscoe nervous you were your voting for joe biden? yes. but you think donald trump is guilty to yes, i am like most people, i kinda liked michael cohen's testimony and i thought it was a strong one based on what i heard from the court reports and how the jury seem to really resonate with them. and i think that the prosecution's attempt of trying to discredit him mostly serves as a way of discrediting trump, who was in charge of hiring him. >> okay. and this is matt over here, mad is ready to vote for donald trump in november and he feels he's not guilty? >> yes, sir. i believe basically with michael hand co hands testimony, there was this going to be basically just a live from the beginning from the idea of just as information we gave okay. >> and matt and believes are a couple here, but liza also, you're ready to vote for donald trump you feel he's not guilty. help come. >> yes i believe his innocent because i thin, he didn't violate any campaign financial luck okay.
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>> but leaves us from columbia originally and you've given american citizen a few years ago. so congratulations, i'm finally, darrell's up there. he's ready to vote for joe biden feels donald trump is guilty. how come you can't, can't explain the way the receipts he did what he did and regardless of who you think is lying or not lying? >> the receipts remained the documents remain final question for you. a show of hands here. if donald trump is found guilty, du, any of you who say you're ready to vote for donald trump? would you consider switching to joe biden? raise your hands no consideration even if he time guilty. >> other hand, if he's found not guilty. and have you voting for joe biden, would you then possibly consider donald trump? all right everyone sticking with the candidates they have right now, we may find out guilty or not guilty as early as tomorrow. anderson, back to you. >> carry tuckman. thanks so much. back now with the panel. interestingly here, how is not good news for donald trump ban? i mean, they go right along political lines i mean, that's the 100%. and you're talking to
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a jury pool just so you know, the jury pool comes from the voter pool. the voter pool here. i don't know mcu was at 3:17. >> see something along those lines. >> so that is to not who seems to take a quick completely off the table. i mean, if ensuring it looks anything like that which is why the reporting tonight from our own paula reid, is that the trump team they think their best chances are hung jury, and it may very well be if the jury decides that they really, really can't make this work, that's why did this thing about the allen charge potentially it could be important by the way, does the allen charge have to happen or it's fair. stuck. the judge will eventually tell them you need to make a decision eventually as the keyword. it's usually, it's this there's no law. it's usually the third times he hit one. we're hopelessly deadlocked and then can we hear this feat breed back that this read back. okay now, the next day or hours later, we're hopelessly deadlocked. then the third one the judge says, look, we've all
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been killing ourselves, including the 12 of you to reach a verdict. and it's not like if you pass it just going to be 12 other jurors that we're going to have to do this. so please go start negotiations from the beginning. start from like deliberations from the beating if need, be, and reconsider the evidence that it has to be he said, hung juries are rare about five, 6% of all jury's a little more common in high profile cases. this is a jury that i think every one of them is going to try hard to apply the law to the evidence and come to a decision. >> i think the important thing though to look at that is that this is not just all happening and what happens with that? this verdict, it's also the question of what is the aftermath instances. we are five months out from the campaign and the thing that we saw today that we have never seen in this trial so far is biden sending his allies in his campaign surrogates to the park outside of the court to come and talk about this. and one of them was asking, why are you guys here? i believe it was the deputy camp campaign manager and he said we're here because you guys are here talking to
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the reporters who are outside covering this trial. and i think that is a question because we are told president biden is going to weigh in on this verdict, whatever it is, once we do have it from this jury and so it is a question of whether it's an acquittal. if it's something that helps fuel trump's camp payne or if it's in any way anything that impacts his his run, would you guys were in the courtroom today? i was outside the courtroom. i've quick case on and they came outside and i'm talking to the court officers. i go what's going on over these pandemonium and the like, oh, barbara de niro's over there, giving a speech. and then when he left i don't know what security was around him, but it was it was insane. like i've never seen it saying because there's so many such international media that to begin with, and it's bobby de niro and they're just following him and it was the trump people are screaming. it was like nothing i've ever seen raises the question about whether, i mean luck, the biden campaign can rationalize the media. is there shore, but the american people have largely made up their minds about this guy, donald trump. they know how they feel probably about
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this case. and it doesn't matter at the end of the day. i think what the jury's verdict is in terms of how people already feel about his guilt or innocence this is why i thought that was such a fascinating exercise at gary tuckman just did. i mean, it was 100% political correlation to verdict correlation he had for trump voters on that mock jury for not guilty votes, that is remarkable. and look, this haven't been in the actual room. i mean, it's really start to say they haven't it's very different when you're actually in the room. so i don't think anyone should i just don't want them would have changed based on what we just saw. anyone watching that to think it's a translation of what this jury is going to do. we don't know what it's a fat no, of course not, but it's also meeting exercise and that it breaks one and the four that were against him that were for acquittal would never have come over. i don't care what they saw. that was clear and same vice versa. this is there is a political aspect that's inseparable here. >> thank everybody in the news continues morphine and special coverage of the trump hush money trial right after the short break see them all you got better things to do than clean out clog gutters, call
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